Ellen Willoughby (00:01):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Drinking from the Firehose. A podcast for principals and other campus leaders. I am your host Ellen Willoughby. Today our guest is Katrina Bailey. She is the principal at Caraway Elementary in Round Rock ISD. Hi, Katrina. Welcome to the podcast.

Katrina Bailey (00:19):
Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Ellen Willoughby (00:22):
Well, we are really excited and we want to go ahead and just start off by having you share your definition of a culturally responsive school and why it is important to create culturally responsive schools?

Katrina Bailey (00:33):
Well, that is a really, really great question and so relevant in today's world, in just our global world, global society and our approach to schools. And so a culturally responsive school is one that uses the cultural knowledge of their community, of their students prior experiences, the staff's prior experiences, and the diverse learning styles that students bring to the classroom to make learning more engaging and more effective for students.

Ellen Willoughby (01:04):
Great. And tell me a little bit about what that looks like?

Katrina Bailey (01:07):
So in the classroom, if I'm a classroom teacher, I would be surveying my students to understand their unique experiences, their backgrounds. I think that's the first thing that we do. You know at the beginning of the school year, you get that class list and you're looking to see who's in your classroom. You're looking at those 20, 22 faces, 25 faces I think sometimes in cases that are going to be in your classroom and you're going through... And you're doing your background. I think that that's important, I think it's important to understand who's coming into your classroom so that you can create a space where they feel comfortable. So I think it's doing your background as a teacher to understand who's going to be in your space, so that to know what they're going to bring, the cultural capital that they bring to the learning environment and recognizing that it's important in planning and designing learning experiences and making that class a community.

Katrina Bailey (02:00):
So I think that that's the first step is just understanding. It's surveying, it's asking students how best they learn. I think it's asking students what makes them comfortable in a classroom space, and really what they hope to get out of the year so that you can design your learning experiences around that. Around building that community and making sure that you are bringing in the students' cultural backgrounds, their experiences to the table because I think it's also not making assumptions about what students do and do not know, but it's also recognizing the brilliance that they bring into your classroom every single day as well.

Ellen Willoughby (02:34):
I love that, it starts with the kids. It sounds like.

Katrina Bailey (02:37):
Yes, it does.

Ellen Willoughby (02:38):
That's great. So I would love to hear a little bit about yourself and your school.

Katrina Bailey (02:42):
So for me, I have been the principal at Caraway going on seven years now and it's a really great school. And it's a really unique campus, the campus is 42 years old now, and it has a really unique context. We're a part of Round Rock Independent School District, but we're Austin-Travis County, where our location is. And so it really brings in a really unique context in that we have students from all over the place, really. We call ourselves a family, we're really an international family because we have over 38 different languages spoken in our school.

Ellen Willoughby (03:15):
Wow.

Katrina Bailey (03:16):
And our students come from all over, all over the US, all over the world. We have lots of students that are from India, we have lots of students from Europe, Latin America, Mexico, right here in the US around the Austin area. So our school really has a really international feel to it. We went through a period of time where we grew really quickly to following most of what's happening in the Austin area, where we were adding probably anywhere between 40 to 70 students a year. So we had this really fast growth from a school of less than 700 to close to 900 last year, really quickly. And so that is a really unique context for us too because we had to learn to adapt really quickly to the students and the experiences they were bringing into our school and it's been fun.

Katrina Bailey (04:06):
It's been really fun and enjoyable to see our students adapt and learn from each other and our staff adapt in our community. It's such a welcoming community in the Austin area and part of Round Rock. I always say that it's unique, it's a little hidden gem hidden back... It's a neighborhood school and it's a hidden gem, it's just a wonderful place to be.

Ellen Willoughby (04:28):
That's great. And just the incredible amount of diversity that your campus has, has to be just such a unique and really amazing experience not only for the students, but also for the staff.

Katrina Bailey (04:43):
Right, right, right. And in our staff too there's so... The unique thing about our staff is that they are truly... their desire to know their students is truly authentic. And I think that that is the piece of being culturally responsive that's important is that we are authentic in our approach to wanting to know our students because we know how important that is. And I think it's not maybe necessarily unique to our school, but I think that it's what makes our school great. In that our approach to getting to know our students is authentic because it really comes from a place of really wanting to know so that we can be our best for students.

Ellen Willoughby (05:23):
That's awesome. So I want to start out with some data that I found, that's going to lead us into to our next question. So according to The Hechinger Report, it's a national nonprofit newsroom and they report on just education. And they said that educators who run US schools aren't a diverse group, that almost 80% of the nation's 90,000 principals are white and only 11% are black and 8% are Latino and this is all according to federal data. And so that doesn't come close to reflecting the demographics of the nation's 50 million public school children who are 46% white, 15% black, 28% Latino, and 6% Asian. So what are your thoughts on this data, especially related to creating culturally responsive schools?

Katrina Bailey (06:14):
My mind immediately goes to the narrative that we're creating. If we think about leadership roles and positions in general, whether it's race or gender or whatever context we want to look at leadership, I think that we create a narrative that it is... when we look at those numbers, we're creating a narrative that maybe leadership isn't for certain groups. And so I think that that's one that we have to recognize that that there is a cultural mismatch, and we have to disrupt that narrative.

Ellen Willoughby (06:45):
Definitely.

Katrina Bailey (06:46):
And students do need to see themselves as leaders and the best way to do that is to diversify the leadership, not just the teaching staff, but also those that are in leadership positions within our school. Like I said, and my mind it immediately goes to disrupting that narrative that leadership is bound to a race or a certain gender. And so it's our job as leaders in the education field to advocate. And I think that it goes bigger than just the school system, I think it goes bigger to... I think it reaches across the preparation programs, the recruitment of a diverse group into education, I think it's important. So I think it's something that we need to recognize as a problem of practice I should call it, a problem of practice and that we do need to diversify so we can disrupt that narrative.

Ellen Willoughby (07:40):
Great. And I absolutely agree that it has to start from the recruitment piece of university and getting a diverse population into the profession. Absolutely.

Ellen Willoughby (07:58):
If you like what you hear in this episode, hop on over to whatever platform you use and give us a rating and review, it really helps people find our podcast. And lets us know what we're doing right and what we can approve upon. And of course, don't forget to mention this to your colleagues. Thanks. Now let's get back to the show.

Ellen Willoughby (08:20):
So as a campus principal, where do you start? And if we're looking at schools that have been in existence for a long time or even new schools who have just been going along with the status quo, and are really wanting to examine how they are meeting the needs of the various diverse populations of their schools, so what would you recommend?

Katrina Bailey (08:48):
I think there are some really basic things we can start to do as campus principals and leaders in approaching the work. I think one is just starting with recognition first, I think recognizing and I think we're already there. We recognize that this is a need. And so I think we're there and we understand it and how do we best approach it. And so for me, I think I look at the different practices that I have on my campus. I look at who I am hiring on my campus so that we can start to diversify. And I work with all of my stakeholders, my staff, I think it's important to build the capacity there because the teacher is the most important factor. The teacher is the program, we say that. And so I think it starts with building the capacity and the staff as well as a starting point.

Katrina Bailey (09:39):
And I think my hiring committee that when we sit down and we build a profile of what our campus needs, we look at our campus demographic data and we look at who's voice needs to be brought to the table and how we need to diversify our staff. And I think it starts at the hiring practices, I think it starts at the professional development because we control that as leaders. We control what professional development is in front of our teachers. We control the hiring practices. So there are some very basic things that we can do. We control the type of resources that we purchase in our school and ensuring that if I'm purchasing literature from my library, that I am vetting that. And then I'm vetting that I have diverse literature that my students can choose from.

Katrina Bailey (10:20):
So I think that there are some basic things that can happen at the campus level that maybe we can't control the larger context individually, but we can control the local context very easily. And there are some steps that we can take and I think part of that is starting with self too while we're growing self in the process there are some small moves that we can make because we do control a lot of our local context and how we approach the work.

Ellen Willoughby (10:45):
And so thinking about that, we know that this work is really highly emotional. Like if you're really digging into this and really looking at yourself and where you stand, and then wanting to grow that with your teachers and to help them build their own knowledge base and understanding of how to serve their students in the best way possible. How do you handle pushback or resistance from teachers and staff on the campus?

Katrina Bailey (11:18):
That is a challenge, this is definitely a challenge. But I think that part of that too is recognizing that in order to approach this work, we have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Culturally responsiveness and helping others recognize the importance in that work, and recognizing that it starts with self because a lot like I said, a lot of the work starts with self makes people feel really uncomfortable. There are certain topics that are just uncomfortable to talk about and race being one of them. Race, ethnicity, anything that is like I said, said to disrupt that narrative it makes people uncomfortable. So I think that we have to recognize that the work is going to be uncomfortable. And I think we speak to that, whenever you start this work, you speak to, "Today, we're going to be focused on XYZ topic." And recognizing and inviting that it is going to be uncomfortable for us to talk about this, but really bridging back to the why.

Katrina Bailey (12:14):
Why is this important? And when we look at the data, the data is pretty consistent across multiple context. Whether it be school or whether it be home ownership, or whether it be who has leadership and power and who's in different positions that that data is consistent. And so I think it's bridging back to the why and the why of the work. And I think when we start there, one with the why, and recognizing that our approach to this work is going to be uncomfortable and we have to make it a safe space too. When somebody tells me that they're uncomfortable with something or that they don't understand something, I have to as a leader recognize where they are on that continuum and continuing to work with, and even differentiate myself as a leader and my approach to supporting and growing my teachers and my staff in this work. And even community, right?

Ellen Willoughby (13:13):
Right.

Katrina Bailey (13:15):
Community is important in that I think it's really easy for us to just say we were going to fix the school piece, but I think the community has to also understand that why piece too because I think that that could also be a barrier to the work.

Ellen Willoughby (13:28):
Definitely. And I think in our current times where a lot of people in a really great way are really looking at where they stand and how they react to things such as the work of becoming anti-racist. And I think that that can sometimes... obviously, it can be very, very uncomfortable. And I think having the community really be a part of that conversation as well, just continues to help push the equity that we need in our schools and in our cities and our country.

Katrina Bailey (14:09):
Right. Right. Absolutely. I think creating equitable outcomes is something that I think we all agree on. And I think that when we start there with our why we all want the same thing, where we should. If we all came into to education to have better outcomes for all students. And I think if we could center on that and recognizing that there are ways to do this that are comfortable and some that are very uncomfortable, but I think that it's just recognizing and centering on that we all want what's best for students.

Ellen Willoughby (14:42):
Great. Thank you for that. So the next question, and this is a question... So I did another interview with another principal, she is a white principal and has worked really hard to build culturally relevant schools. And so I wanted to have that conversation with her as well. And one of the big things she and I worked together, and we found that there was a big gap in how campuses or schools are handling behavior interventions. So what does being culturally responsive mean when it comes to behavior interventions and discipline, and what does that look like? Because we know, the data shows that that black boys especially are suspended at a much higher rate than any other population in the school.

Katrina Bailey (15:32):
Right. I think it takes advocacy. I am a black principal and I've been doing this for about seven years now and you're absolutely correct. What we see is boys in general, but especially black boys and the approach to it is different. And it's interesting... I was having a conversation with another principal we were looking at some data, and it was specific to discipline data. And we were looking at an equity audit and it was showing the different reasons why students get referrals. And one was for African-American males it was aggressive action, for white males it was horseplay. And so that's something that I felt like was really important to pull out and recognize with my staff. When we are writing referrals for behavior, how do we view when we perceive that behavior.

Katrina Bailey (16:29):
Because for this group of students we're viewing it as an aggressive action. But for this group of students, which may be the exact same behavior, we are approaching this as, "Well, it was just horseplay." So even how we view students through that lens, and we can say we're colorblind and we don't see race, but our data says that we do. And I can tell you that that's how we approached it on our campus is just pulling up that data and seeing that people see the same things that we see and people do, like our staff they do, they recognize that. And we begin to have a conversation about it because we can't really argue with data. And then we start to vary our approaches to it, is restorative practice better.

Katrina Bailey (17:14):
Because as a campus principal, there's nothing worse than having a student come to the office... And I can tell you, my approach to students is very different because when they come to me, I'm not upset with them with what they did because they didn't do it in my office or in my classroom, they were in a classroom and they're coming to me to have a conversation about it. So the worst thing I can do is send them back into the classroom where a teacher's not ready to receive them. So one of the things in our approach is using that restorative practice piece and that we have to fix what's broken. If you're going to come to me, we're going to talk through what it is but really who you need to repair this relationship with is the teacher. And the needs to repair relationship with you because it's also recognizing that yes the behavior may have been wrong, but there's always a cause.

Katrina Bailey (17:58):
And maybe in some cases we didn't recognize really what the cause of that behavior was. But one of the approaches that we've varied in trying to change our discipline data and our approach and how teachers see things is really helping the teacher and the student repair that relationship. So after I have a conversation with the student and some time has passed, I go and I relieve that teacher, so that that teacher and student can fix what was broken. And sometimes that's facilitated by another administrator or counselor to facilitate the conversation between the two, so that that relationship can be repaired and the student can come back into class and feel safe and comfortable. And the teacher can feel that too because that's important. We don't want to send a student back into the classroom and the teacher not be ready to receive them and the message that that sends to the student is, "I'm not wanted here." Which can lead to further behavior.

Katrina Bailey (18:53):
So that restorative piece, I think is important and our traditional approach to how we handle this area... Issues of discipline are important too. And so it's not keeping a student in the office the rest of the day because the teacher's not ready to receive them, and then sending them back and never have an opportunity to repair that relationship. That's important. And it really also helps the teacher, what I've noticed is that it helps the teacher see the student as a student, who is still learning and adapting and growing. Because they are, they're still developing and growing their social skills and they're still developing and growing in lots of different ways. And the most important place for them to be is in the classroom.

Ellen Willoughby (19:35):
Right. Most definitely.

Katrina Bailey (19:36):
And so we have to work towards that approach.

Ellen Willoughby (19:40):
And I love that it's restorative for both, it's about the teacher learning as much as it is about the student learning. And I just can see how valuable that is. I'm thinking back to my time in the classroom of like, "Wow, how great it would be to have had that opportunity to sit down with a student, and have that conversation outside of the classroom in a safe environment for them." And the learning that comes from both parties for sure.

Katrina Bailey (20:13):
Correct. Absolutely.

Ellen Willoughby (20:15):
So I would love to hear from you about what are some of the things that you have done to increase your own knowledge about creating a culturally responsive school?

Katrina Bailey (20:25):
Oh my gosh. Lots of professional development around it, one of the best workshops that I've had the opportunity to attend and actually it was a summit. Our district did a summit with a professor from the University of Texas, Dr. Terrence Green. And it was really this kind of... It varied my approach to the work because I think that going back to what we talked about earlier is people being uncomfortable with the work. There was one message that he said that resonated with me, especially being a black woman principal and trying to approach the work with my staff who is 80% white females and trying to approach that work. And understanding the importance that it's not just me feeling like it's important and me recognizing that this work is important but all of us. And there was one statement that he gave to us that has resonated with me and it has guided my approach to this work. And it was, "It's not your fault, but it's our responsibility." We didn't create this education debt that some of our students are experiencing.

Katrina Bailey (21:37):
We didn't create the achievement gap, if that's what we want to call it. We didn't create the disparities that exist within the data, but we are here now and it's our responsibility to fix it. So lots of training in culturally responsiveness and how we approach the work. I love the book, How to Be an Antiracist. I love anything that I can get my hands on that gives me a nugget that I can use with my teachers and my staff, so that it stays fresh and I always have a tool in my toolbox to be able to use when I'm trying to guide them in the work too. And so again, I think that just that one statement has varied my approach to the work, and I think it allows people to safely enter the space of doing the work with me. That I'm not saying that it's your fault, but it's our responsibility together to help close these gaps and the disparities that we see so that we can create equity and outcomes for students.

Ellen Willoughby (22:38):
And that's just such a powerful statement, you can't argue with that that's for sure. For sure. And I know now we're so lucky to have so many different resources you talked about the book, How to Be an Antiracist. There's just so much information out there now that is really, really helpful for teachers, leaders, everybody on the street to pick up and really be able to do this important work. So thinking about, so we've obviously been in COVID times for 10 months, how has that impacted the culturally responsiveness of the work that you all do on campus or virtually?

Katrina Bailey (23:22):
Oh, wow. For sure. I think it's even more important. I think our teachers see the importance because now you have a bird's eye view into students' homes that we may not have necessarily had before. And we can see the different tools and resources that students have or don't have in their ability to fully participate in school. And so I think it furthers the conversation along and I think it furthers along our why. We have students whose families can hire a tutor to be at home with their students all day long and learn virtually and participate virtually in school. We have some students who the parents try to balance work and keep their students safe at home. And then we have some students, some parents who have really no options, but they maybe not want to send their students back to school in person, but they really had no choice.

Katrina Bailey (24:21):
We look at access of this kind of resources, do you have a book at your home to read? So it's easy for us to say, "I want you to read for 20 minutes and I want you to have a response on this." But what if I don't have a book in my home to read and plus I really think that teachers start to see... I think we know it, but I think we really start to see those disparities and how huge those gaps are and just access to resources and equity. And so I think that that equity conversation continues to come up. How do we create a balance so that everybody is able to participate and that they get what they need. And so I think our teachers have started to use their resources differently.

Katrina Bailey (25:01):
We have a 100 of parent volunteers on our campus who want to help and they want to be partners in this work, so then we start to use parents differently too. I got to get books to the students homes, so then we start to use our parent volunteers differently, "Can you go and deliver these books? Can you be the volunteer for my classroom who delivers books to students classrooms who may not be able to come to the school to get them or receive them." We start to really see our students in different ways. So our district even this is pre-COVID, our district last year started to see... Took a real investment in not just the campus library, but our campus literacy libraries. And that's where we pull books to do small group instruction with students and really wanting to diversify that.

Katrina Bailey (25:50):
And what was interesting is we had a team that was actually going through our literacy library and trying to get things organized because we had $10,000 worth of books coming in-

Ellen Willoughby (26:00):
Oh, wow.

Katrina Bailey (26:01):
... actually, probably even more than that. And really seeing some of the books that we had in there, how maybe inappropriate they may have been for families and for a lot of different reasons. And they felt empowered to come and say, "I don't really think that these books are appropriate for us to have in the literacy library. And we need more of maybe this, or we need to have books that are more representative of our families."

Katrina Bailey (26:27):
And families live different ways too and so our teachers start to recognize all of those things. And it's beautiful, it's a really beautiful... Part of the work is, it's beautiful when things starts to click and it starts to become more organic. And it's not top-down we have to do this, but it starts to become more organic because your staff starts to see this as a need, and that it's necessary, and that it's important. And it improves our overall bottom line and again, it just goes back to equitable outcomes for students.

Ellen Willoughby (27:00):
That's awesome. And that investment, you see the value of that investment and the impact that it has on students, which is amazing. We just have one more question and then we'll move into our little seven short answer questions.

Katrina Bailey (27:16):
Okay.

Ellen Willoughby (27:17):
So the last question I have is I would love to know what advice would you give to leaders... Actually, I think we kind of talked about this who are just creating culturally responsive schools. Let me think of another question real quick. Or is there any other thing that you feel is important that you share with our listeners today?

Katrina Bailey (27:44):
If we want to in essence create the kinds of schools that we hope like in our visions, we have these beautiful vision statements. But I think the thing for leaders to recognize is ensuring that when we speak those vision and mission statements, that they include all students. And when we say all that we truly mean all. And that we truly have that responsibility and I think that it takes courage right now to be a leader in schools.

Ellen Willoughby (28:12):
Most definitely.

Katrina Bailey (28:15):
For a lot of different reasons. And especially to lead in the context and where we are pre COVID, during COVID, and after COVID, it's going to take courage to continue the work. And so it's my advice to leaders is to stay the course, to have courage because were all in this together and our students need it.

Ellen Willoughby (28:34):
That's beautiful. As we do with each podcast episode, I'm going to end with our seven short answer questions with an educational twist. So as an educator, what keeps you up at night?

Katrina Bailey (28:48):
I think over... Excuse me, I'm going to-

Ellen Willoughby (28:53):
No, that's okay.

Katrina Bailey (28:54):
... repeat that question. What keeps me up at night is whether or not I've made the best decision for students.

Ellen Willoughby (29:01):
As an educator, what allows you to sleep soundly?

Katrina Bailey (29:08):
Knowing that I am putting forth my best every single day.

Ellen Willoughby (29:12):
What sound or noise do you love to hear in a school.

Katrina Bailey (29:16):
Student laughter.

Ellen Willoughby (29:17):
What sound or noise do you hate to hear in a school?

Katrina Bailey (29:21):
Violence.

Ellen Willoughby (29:22):
What is your favorite word in education?

Katrina Bailey (29:25):
Equity.

Ellen Willoughby (29:27):
What is your least favorite word in education?

Katrina Bailey (29:30):
Achievement gap.

Ellen Willoughby (29:32):
Who was your favorite teacher and why?

Katrina Bailey (29:35):
Oh my gosh. I think I would have to say my favorite teacher in school with Ms. Hall. She was my fourth grade teacher at Grove Valley Elementary in Austin ISD. And she was my favorite teacher because she one day asked me to get up and read my writing in class. And I was a great student in school, I'll say, but it was in that moment that I truly felt like somebody saw me and they were recognizing my brilliance and what I brought into their learning environment, that they saw enough to have me share my thoughts and the work that I wrote on my paper with my peers. And to me that is important, that somebody recognizes and sees all of the students in their classroom.

Ellen Willoughby (30:26):
Thank you so much for sharing that. And Katrina I want to thank you so much for just sharing your wealth of knowledge, and really being an inspirational leader for our podcast listeners.

Katrina Bailey (30:38):
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate being here today.

Ellen Willoughby (30:42):
Awesome. If you like what you hear in this episode, hop on over to whatever platform you use and give us a rating and review. And of course, don't forget to mention us to your colleagues. Thanks.