Ellen Willoughby (00:01): Welcome to Drinking from the Firehose, a podcast for campus leaders. I'm your host, Ellen Willoughby from Educational Service Center, Region 13 in Austin, Texas. On today's podcast, our topic is culturally responsive schools. I am thrilled to introduce our guest today. Hi Mera, welcome to the podcast. Mera Dougherty (00:17): Hi Ellen. Thanks for having me. Ellen Willoughby (00:19): Absolutely. Mera Dougherty started college on the path to becoming a neuroscientist, but after volunteering with local high schoolers, many of whom hadn't received the academic preparation needed to fill out their college applications, much less succeed in higher education, she decided to pursue teaching. After working in local schools in Brooklyn, New York and Austin as a teacher and a principal, Mera is now the founding principal of Compass Rose Destiny, a new K through 12 charter school that will be opening up in the Austin area in fall 2021. Ellen Willoughby (00:51): I have also had the great honor of working with Mera in the past, and I know she has relentless passion and desire to create culturally-responsive schools for all children. So I want to start off by having you share your definition of a culturally responsive school and why that is important to you. Mera Dougherty (01:06): Yeah. I think when we think about culturally responsive schools, we all go back to the 90's definition, the Ladson-Billings, culturally responsive is you're taking account of what kids' culture is and you're incorporating that in some way into our pedagogy. I think now we've got to move on. That's great. I'm not against that definition, but I think it's time that we elaborate on it a little bit. Mera Dougherty (01:34): So when I think about culturally responsive schools and teaching, the thing that I think about is creating a school where an adult or a kid could walk in the door and they one, see themselves reflected in the school. In the culture of the school, in the texts they read, in the curriculum they learn about, they see a reflection of themselves. In addition, they have a window into seeing into other people's cultures. They actually have the ability to explore other cultures, learn about them in a way that makes them a respectful, but also active member in a diverse society. Mera Dougherty (02:08): And then I think there's a step that we forget, which is creating a culture that's safe enough, where kids can actually explore their own identity and they can be in a space where others are exploring their identities at the same time, and it's really safe and progressive to do that. So that's what I think about when we think about a culturally responsive school. It's important to me. I think look at the world right now. Ellen Willoughby (02:33): Absolutely. Mera Dougherty (02:34): But I also think, because our kids are really wonderful and the culture that they have, that they inherently come in with in school, and the adults we have in our school, all come in with these cultures that are really phenomenal. They're phenomenal humans. And we have said for so many years, "We need you to put that aside and then walk into the building." And I think makes kids and adults not engage in education the way they could. If we said, "Actually, let's bring that into the building, that is part of your education. Let's really affirm that. Let's affirm who you are, where you came from," and give that credit, we will actually see the face of education change. Ellen Willoughby (03:17): Yeah. And I think that one of the big pieces that you pointed out that is really so valuable is we have for so long, like you said, shut it down, leave that at the door. We all celebrate it on these particular times of the year, based on a calendar somebody created, and that's it. And what has been really the downfall of this? How has that shown up in our schools when we have ignored the different cultures and the different races, and the diversity of our students and our teachers? Mera Dougherty (03:52): Yeah. I think you're totally right, Ellen. When we ignore this, what we're asking kids to do is to engage in learning that has nothing to do with them, right? Ellen Willoughby (04:04): Right. Mera Dougherty (04:05): And I don't know how many trainings you've been... I would say you've been to millions, right? Ellen Willoughby (04:10): At least hundreds. Mera Dougherty (04:11): You and I have sat in hundreds. Ellen Willoughby (04:13): We have, together. Absolutely. Mera Dougherty (04:14): And when it has nothing to do with you, there's no way you're engaging in it. There's no way you're going to take something out of that. Maybe something minuscule, but it's not sticky, right? Ellen Willoughby (04:24): Right. Mera Dougherty (04:24): If you think of, again, I love incorporating neuroscience into what I do. It doesn't make memories sticky. It doesn't make information sticky. You're not able to retain that and actually apply it. And so when we wonder, why is it so hard to get kids to apply the information they're learning in schools. Well, the information that we're teaching in schools has nothing to do with them, and we're actually teaching them that they don't matter. "You don't matter, but this information does." And think about what that does to a kid every day when that's the message that's being sent, and what that does to a community when that's the message a school is sending, versus, "You matter the most, this community matters the most. And I'm going to give you information to help you engage in this community, make this community flourish, continue to help this community flourish." It really changes the way kids take in information. Ellen Willoughby (05:16): Yeah. And it's understanding that everybody has a voice and everybody's voice is valid. Mera Dougherty (05:21): Yes. Ellen Willoughby (05:21): And if we really think about the adults right now, who are trying to really incorporate this, who have been raised to leave it at the door, it's a really big shift. Mera Dougherty (05:32): It really is. Ellen Willoughby (05:33): So I want to share just a little bit of data. So according to the National Association of Independent Schools, "Building culturally responsive schools requires tapping into our own cultural knowledge, experiences, and perspectives. It begins with us. It is highly emotional work that explores existing beliefs, values, opinions, and unconscious bias. Because cultural differences are assets, heads of schools, administrators, and teachers need to create safe spaces where these differences are valued and affirmed." So as shared in the quote, it begins with us. So as a campus principal, where do you start? Mera Dougherty (06:11): I think for me, the biggest learning and where you start... So I would have said you start by making sure kids are reflected in schools and you buy these texts. That's great. All of that is good and that's important. The biggest learning, I would say over the course of the last three years and founding in different communities has been, you need to start with the community you serve, right? Ellen Willoughby (06:38): Right. Mera Dougherty (06:39): A coworker of mine, Celeste. I wrote down this quote, she always says of, "Nothing for us, without us." She's always using this quote, and it just brings me back to the idea that the first thing you do when you're thinking of making a culturally responsive school and just a culturally affirming school, because we don't necessarily need to respond, we should be proactive in this. Ellen Willoughby (07:00): Nice. Culturally... Say that one again. Mera Dougherty (07:03): A culturally affirming school. Ellen Willoughby (07:05): Culturally affirming school. Mera Dougherty (07:06): And I don't know if that exists. I don't think I'm coining that term. Maybe that does. Ellen Willoughby (07:10): Maybe it it. Mera Dougherty (07:10): If someone came up with it, thank you. But when you're making a school like that in any community like that, the first thing you need to do is go and ask the community who they are. Explore your community, know the history of your community, know what it is. What are the hopes and dreams of your community? Who are the people in it? Talk to everyone. Go everywhere. Once you've figured that out, then I think you have the internal work of figuring out, okay, great. This is who the community I'm serving is. Who am I in that community? Mera Dougherty (07:44): And that's where it gets really sticky. That's the work when it says that, you said, it's super emotional. This is where people have to do the hard work of saying, "Who am I?" For example, who am I as a white leader in this work? What role do I really play in this community? What role do I need to play? What roles can I not play? Once you've figured that out, what you need to do as a school leader and how you integrate, how you make sure that culturally responsive frameworks are in your school, it all flows from there. Once you know what your community wants, who they truly are, and who you are in that work, then I think everything comes pretty naturally. Ellen Willoughby (08:24): I think that that is also not only for someone who's founding a school, but even current administrators. Mera Dougherty (08:29): Yes. Ellen Willoughby (08:29): We have current administrators who may not be connected with the community that they serve, and also, their community very likely has changed dramatically over the last several years. So thinking about that, what does that look like? How do you build that, and build that connection and understanding with the community? Mera Dougherty (08:52): Yeah. Speaker 3 (08:53): If you like what you hear in this episode, pop on over to whatever platform you use and give us a rating and review. It really helps people find our podcast and lets us know what we're doing right and what we can improve upon. And of course, don't forget to mention this to your colleagues. Thanks. Now let's get back to the show. Mera Dougherty (09:14): I wish I had a cleaner way of doing this. Like, "Here are the five steps." Ellen Willoughby (09:18): Yes. But it's messy work. Mera Dougherty (09:21): But it's super messy work. So for example, right now, like you said, I'm starting a school in Manor. What this means is literally, I talk to everybody I can in Manor. So I start with folks, I've got a woman on my board, Sheila Matthews. She is a time resident of Manor, she's a really active member in her church in Manor, she's really an advocate for early childhood education in Manor. Ellen Willoughby (09:46): Great. Mera Dougherty (09:46): She does not hold any political seats in Manor, but she is like the unofficial mayor. Ellen Willoughby (09:51): Right. Mera Dougherty (09:52): No disrespect to the mayor. We love him too. And we've met with him as well. But you meet with everybody who is an active voice in Manor, and then you meet with the folks that don't have an active voice. You sit down for coffee, you get on a Zoom call, you do whatever you need to do to talk to everybody in Manor, or in your community. For me, it's Manor. Ellen Willoughby (10:14): Right. Mera Dougherty (10:15): So you can really say, "Okay, this is the diversity of opinions that I'm getting. These are the trends that I'm starting to hear." But I would say the first thing you do is a listening tour. As you're doing that, then you can do the things like looking up, making sure you know the history, making sure you know the school information, the demographic data, et cetera. That's the easy part though, and I think that's what school leaders naturally tend to do. Ellen Willoughby (10:36): Right. Yeah. We go straight to the data first. Mera Dougherty (10:39): Which is great. Ellen Willoughby (10:39): Yeah. It's a great starting point. Mera Dougherty (10:41): Yes. Ellen Willoughby (10:42): But the harder work and the most important work is the boots on the ground work. Mera Dougherty (10:46): Exactly. And then once you've talked to folks get entrenched. So for me, I'm at the food pantry in Eternal Faith Baptist Church, every other Saturday. Sometimes I don't think they need me, I think they're just entertaining me there. I'm at the food pantry there, I'm going to go to the events that happen in Manor. We're sitting down and having lunch with folks. You have to make sure that you're going to the events and you're taking part in the community celebrations, just taking part in the community that exists there, so that you understand really, you have a pulse of the community. Ellen Willoughby (11:22): And thinking about current principals, because that's one of the demographics or one of the groups that we really want to also think about, is the first thought I think of is like, "Oh, the time." But I also think about the return on that investment will pay off in spades. Mera Dougherty (11:43): And I think there's a way to do both. So for example, and I hear this, there are nights where literally last night I was like, "It is eight o'clock, I am so tired." And I've got another parent called to make, or I've got to reach out to another family because of this. The thing that I think, yesterday I came back to this, was for principals right now who are looking to do this work, and they're also in the work. Boots on the ground, they're reviewing data, they're there with kids every day. The best way to do this, I think is to mesh your opportunities. Mera Dougherty (12:23): So if you have something, for example, you've got a student event coming up, get parent opinion on it. As you're planning, as you're trying to figure these things out, go ahead and get... And not just parent, get family, get community input. Ask somebody that you've never talked to you about an event that you're doing. Ask somebody that you've never talked to, but you know is important in the community about something that's coming up. Ask somebody what you should do about an issue that you've just been mulling around in your head and is keeping you up at night. Go ahead and set up a quick 10 to 15-minute Zoom call with someone in your community that you can ask this question, because the shocking part is they are way smarter than you. They know. Ellen Willoughby (13:03): They know. Yes. Mera Dougherty (13:05): I sat, trying to figure out our social media campaign for weeks. "Maybe we should do this." I didn't need to do that. The best thing I ever did was get on the phone with three different people from Manor and say, "Hey, what is it you want to see for your kids? What do you want to see for this community?" And they figured it out for me. You can actually decrease the workload if you recognize that the community you're serving actually has the answers. You just need to implement them. Ellen Willoughby (13:31): Got it. Yeah. So they are your best ally. They are your information source of everything, because again, we can spend all this time spinning our wheels as campus leaders, trying to figure out what do we think they need, but why don't we just ask? Mera Dougherty (13:49): Yeah. Why don't we ask? And why don't we give people the opportunity to do some of that work? Ellen Willoughby (13:54): Yeah. Mera Dougherty (13:55): A lot of times, when we think of work that hasn't been done in a community, it's not that it hasn't been done because someone hasn't wanted to. They didn't have the platform. And so, again, as a leader, you hold this card of privilege and this is a great time to give it back to the community and say, "Hey, I've got the platform. This is work that you've really wanted to do. How would you do it? Great. Come and help me." Ellen Willoughby (14:16): Yeah. It's about handing over the mic. Mera Dougherty (14:19): Right? Ellen Willoughby (14:19): Absolutely. Yeah. Mera Dougherty (14:20): I don't feel like as a leader, I'm doing a ton of leading right now. I've got a wonderful advisory board. Again, I mentioned Sheila. I do what the community wants me to do. I'm trying to give this platform to the folks that need it and do the work that the community is asking to be done. Ellen Willoughby (14:37): Awesome. So one of the things I want to ask is because this work is highly emotional, how do you handle any pushback or resistance from teachers and staff on your campus about this? Mera Dougherty (14:51): I was nervous about this question, Ellen. I think this is one of the hardest parts of this work. And as someone that's worked with you, you do this really beautifully. Ellen Willoughby (15:04): Thank you. Mera Dougherty (15:04): Because I think there's an empathy with it. There's an empathy in terms of making sure, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, "Bring people to the table," and making sure you give people an opportunity to hear and listen and speak to what's going on. With that said, there is a real danger to that. And then what I mean by that is we are serving children. We are serving children and we are serving diverse communities. Ellen Willoughby (15:37): Right. Mera Dougherty (15:38): And so when you get pushed back, there's really two things to consider. One, is this someone that has shown evidence that they are willing to do the work in becoming a diverse, inclusive, teacher, educator, leader, et cetera? And I'm saying concrete evidence, right? Ellen Willoughby (16:02): Right, yes. Mera Dougherty (16:03): Not good intentions, because we, I think a lot of times say, "Good intentions are enough," and that actually isn't the case. At least in my opinion, I would say we have gone past the time for intentions. We need people in this work who are willing to be actively anti-racist, who are willing to be actively inclusive, who are willing to have their hearts and minds changed by their children and community. And if there's evidence that even if they're pushing back, that they've done some of that work and that we can continue to build on it, great, let's have a spot at the table. And I think you deal with that pushback really by exploring who they are and where that pushback comes from. Like, "That's okay. Let's talk about it. Let's figure out where that's coming from. What is it bringing up for you? Let's continue to do that work on ourselves." But if there isn't evidence of that, if there is evidence that this person isn't willing to do the work, then I think we really need to be brave and put kids first. Ellen Willoughby (17:04): Yeah. Mera Dougherty (17:04): The work that we do is putting children first and for too long, we've said the good intentions of adults is enough. And I would say, and this might be a really unpopular belief. Ellen Willoughby (17:15): That's okay. Mera Dougherty (17:15): So I'm sorry if this gets people angry. Ellen Willoughby (17:17): No. This is part of the work. Mera Dougherty (17:19): But we've got to stop that. We've got to say our children and their future comes first, and we need to have adults on board who are willing to say the same. Ellen Willoughby (17:31): Yeah. The productive struggle is allowed. Mera Dougherty (17:33): Yes. Ellen Willoughby (17:34): So if you're like, "This is hard, but I'm trying, and I'm putting forth the work. And I know that I have a belief that is anti-racist. But we don't fix racism overnight. We don't fixed our own conditioning overnight." So having that struggle is the important piece. Mera Dougherty (17:56): Absolutely. Ellen Willoughby (17:58): And when we look at, and I love how you mentioned that making that, "Oh, I think I might believe that way, but I'm not really willing to put in the work," is just continuing to stamp that, "I'm not willing to change." Mera Dougherty (18:16): Yes. Ellen Willoughby (18:17): "And I'm not willing to explore. I'm not willing to feel uncomfortable. This is where I stand," in a sense. Mera Dougherty (18:24): And in some professions it may be okay to say, that's okay. We can take as much time as we need. This is some immediate work that we need to do. Kids deserve better, right now. Ellen Willoughby (18:35): Absolutely. Mera Dougherty (18:35): There are kids in classrooms that don't reflect them in the least bit, that have some racist practices. In education, we've really incorporated racist practices for hundreds of years. So we don't have the time to mess around. That productive struggle is great. That is a struggle I want to see people do. I actually think our best teachers are ones that are most inclusive, are actually the ones that really sit there and say, "Man, I'm not sure if this thing that I'm doing is right. And it makes me uncomfortable to talk about it." Mera Dougherty (19:08): And that's actually great because then we can say, "Great, let's get three different books. Let's talk to the community. Let's actually have an open discussion." Those are the folks that we want on our team. But you're right, there's another group of folks that are like, "This makes me uncomfortable, and I don't really want to engage." And that's where we have to say, "If that's not an option for our kids in the classroom, we don't give our kids that option. That can't be an option for the adults." Ellen Willoughby (19:31): No. None at all. Absolutely. And I think too, that when we think about the struggle is where the learning happens. Just like with our kids, we create productive struggle so that our kids can learn. Just like with adults, we need the productive struggle so that we can work through the really hard messy. There's some resources and things that you can use to help you navigate this, but there's nobody who's hiding the answers underneath their chair. Mera Dougherty (20:06): Absolutely. Ellen Willoughby (20:07): It's about your own journey in exploring your beliefs and thoughts. Mera Dougherty (20:11): Absolutely. Ellen Willoughby (20:13): So thinking about that, I would assume that you incorporate this into your hiring practices. So what does that look like? Mera Dougherty (20:21): Sure. So first, I think you have to incorporate it into your current practices. I am really impressed with the work Compass Rose is doing right now, our schools in San Antonio and our little team in Austin. Ellen Willoughby (20:37): Small, but mighty and powerful. Mera Dougherty (20:38): Small but mighty. Yes. We've been doing this work and I'm just really proud of the organization. There are monthly to biweekly, actual sit-down PDs, where folks are engaging in actively anti-racist work. So I think the first layer is you have to be doing it within your organization before you think about hiring and doing this work. Ellen Willoughby (21:00): Okay. Mera Dougherty (21:00): Because you can't expect others to do it if you're not doing it yourselves. Ellen Willoughby (21:06): Right. Yeah, absolutely. Mera Dougherty (21:07): So I think that's the first step that we have to remember. And then when we think about doing this work within hiring, there's two parts to it. One, you're looking for folks that are willing to engage with this work. That they at least have the ability to say, "Oh my gosh, maybe I've heard of this, but I've never really engaged with it. This is so interesting. What can I read? What can I do as I'm preparing to get into a job where this is part of the work that I do?" So I think that's the minimum that we want to see, or people that have been actively engaging in this work for a long time. Ellen Willoughby (21:38): Right. Mera Dougherty (21:40): So I think that's part of the hiring practice. I think the other goes back to the community, in terms of, we need to be hiring people from the communities we serve. We need to be hiring people that reflect the cultures and identities of the kids and the families that we serve. Ellen Willoughby (21:58): Absolutely. Mera Dougherty (21:59): And not just randomly hiring them. That needs to be something that we value within the hiring process. So we need to think about what are the values that we're truly looking for? Are we reflecting the values and the needs of the community, that before I spoke about that, before we've already gone and gotten and talked to our communities about, and they've said, "Here's what our dreams are. Here's what our aspirations are. Here's who we are," are we then taking those values and reflecting those same values in our hiring? And I would say nine out of 10 times, we are not. Ellen Willoughby (22:35): Right, yeah. Mera Dougherty (22:35): Nine out of 10 times, we're creating a value proposition that exists because we think it's what's right for kids. Yes, we need to incorporate some of that, but we need to make sure that value proposition that we are communicating and the values that we are looking for in our educators are the values that our community is asking for. And very usually, some of those values have to do with being from that community. Ellen Willoughby (22:59): Right. Yeah, definitely. Because like you said, you want the representation of your community in your school. Mera Dougherty (23:09): Most of the schools that we're talking about, if I think about the school that I'm founding, we are a school community, meaning that we are part of the community we're in. We're not this separate entity of, "Come to Manor, and then once you enter our gates, this is a separate world, or a different universe." That's not what we want. I want people from the community coming to our school for events. I want our school to be part of the community. I want folks to, in 15 years say, "Oh, my grandbaby went there and they graduated and now they're in college. Oh, that school is my niece teaches." It needs to be an active, entrenched part of the community. And so to do that, how are we going to do that work if we don't have people from the community doing the work? Ellen Willoughby (23:59): That's a great question. It doesn't make sense. If we're hiring outside of people who don't know the community, who don't understand the needs of the community, even with best intentions, or if they're not willing to entrench themselves in the community, then we're continuing to create a divide that we could actually prevent if we're being really thoughtful in how we hire. Mera Dougherty (24:28): Yeah. Just the other day I was talking to somebody in Bastrop about science curriculum, and how they have really wanted ag science as their focus. And it was just fascinating to me because if I came in and had not talked to anyone from Bastrop, And let's say we came into Bastrop and started a school there, I would've just done a science program like, "Great. Here's some STEM, let's throw it at you." What I realized is, in talking to these families and kids and Bastrop, they knew so much more science than I knew about certain things. Their environmental science knowledge was off the charts. Ellen Willoughby (25:08): Right, because they live it every day. Mera Dougherty (25:09): Oh my gosh. There were things that just were shocking for me to find out, things I genuinely was embarrassed of, I graduated from Columbia university with a degree in sciences and I don't know what you're talking about. But the shocking part was, oh my gosh, you could build, here in this community, an incredible science program, but you're going to need to reframe the way you're thinking about it. We're really going to need to think of what topics we introduce first, how we actually tie this to the work that kids and families are engaging in every day. And so, when we think about, I've been part of leadership teams, as I think you have as well, that say, "This is important, but that's not the focus. The focus isn't knowing your community. The focus is first, we have to teach kids the curriculum." Well, that's an example of if you don't know your community, how are you teaching them well? How do you know what they know? How do you know what their history is? Ellen Willoughby (26:11): Yeah. And you don't, if you haven't asked. And so you're just plowing through and you're putting what you think is best, without looking at the huge, vast amount of knowledge that you have available at your fingertips through your community. Mera Dougherty (26:26): Totally. And you're actually kind of shooting yourself in the foot because you could build on this knowledge that kids and families already have. You could use this knowledge as a platform. And I promise you, if you do that, you're going to get kids to move so much faster. You're going to see academic results you haven't seen before, because you're actually saying what you already know is important and validating that, and let's build from there, versus, "You are a blank slate. You know nothing. Let me explain this all to you." And again, adults, that doesn't work for us. No one likes being told that. Ellen Willoughby (27:02): No, at all. Mera Dougherty (27:03): But we think somehow that's going to work with kids. And again, I am at fault for doing this. I have done this multiple times before, and I wish I could go back and change it. Ellen Willoughby (27:13): No, I hear you on that. Absolutely. I think it's one of those things where, as we say, when you know better, you do better. And when that realization comes up, yes. Because there are tons of times and I'm like, "Gosh, if I would have just done these three things, and really entrenched myself in the community better, then I would be able to really meet their needs." And I think one of the things that you said that really hit me was we look at kids as a blank slate, but they're not. Mera Dougherty (27:44): Mm-mm (negative). Ellen Willoughby (27:44): They come to us with so much, and we have to understand what they're coming to us with so that we can, like you said, expand upon that and build upon that, nurture that, and honor that. Mera Dougherty (27:57): And nine out of 10 times, when we talk to an educator about what kids are coming to us with, and I'm wondering, folks who are listening, if they have this immediate, my antenna goes up. We are typically talking about negative things. Ellen Willoughby (28:14): Yes, we are. Mera Dougherty (28:14): We are typically talking about traumas that kids come to us with. We are typically talking about past experiences that aren't positive they're coming to us with. That's fascinating to me, because we so seldomly talk about the great things that kids are coming to us with, that communities have entrenched in them, that they are bringing to us, and that they are being open enough to share with us. I would say that conversation is not the typical conversation that we're having as educators. Mera Dougherty (28:49): Yes, this work is hard. Yes, this work is really median. It's tough to go through. But even just the basic things of setting aside. In my calendar right now, I have two 30 minute windows a week. Two days a week, 30 minutes of my time that I have to be talking to someone from our community. It can be two 15-minute conversations, it can be one 30-minute conversation. It can be a socially-distant coffee outside on someone's lawn, whatever it is, two of those windows a week can fully change your perspective. It can give you answers to the things that you are doing today, to the things that you're sitting up in your office, trying to figure out what book are we reading in ELA next? Why are our scores on this science IA so low? Whatever it is, what do we make our next school event? You can get those answers in those conversations. You can do double duty and at the same time, your community is going to trust you. And you're going to know something more about your community that is going to help you longterm. Ellen Willoughby (29:53): Well, Mera, I cannot thank you enough for you sharing your knowledge with us today, and then on this really incredibly important topic. And also, just the great laughs as well. And we want to thank all of our listeners for joining us for this episode of Drinking from the Firehose, a podcast for campus leaders. Speaker 3 (30:10): If you like what you hear in this episode, hop on over to whatever platform you use and give us a rating and review. And of course, don't forget to mention this to your colleagues. Thanks.