Ellen Willoughby (00:01):
Welcome to Drinking from the Firehose, a podcast for campus leaders. I'm your host Ellen Willoughby from Educational Service Center, Region 13, in Austin, Texas. On today's podcast our topic is culturally responsive schools. I am thrilled to introduce our guest today. Hi, Mera. Welcome to the podcast.

Mera Dougherty (00:17):
Hi, Ellen. Thanks for having me.

Ellen Willoughby (00:19):
Absolutely. I want to share another piece of data that according to the Hechinger Report, it's a national nonprofit newsroom and it reports on the only topic of education. And they say that educators who run US schools aren't a diverse group. Almost 80% of the nation's 90,000 principals are white. Only 11% are Black and 9% are Latino. And this is all according to federal data.

Ellen Willoughby (00:46):
This doesn't come close to reflecting the demographics of the nation's 50 million public school children who are 46% white, 15% Black, 28% Latino and 6% Asian. So I know that when we were chatting about having you as a guest on this topic, the first thing, and I knew that this was going to come up as you were like, "I'm a white lady who is a principal. And you're asking me to talk about cultural diversity." I want you to share a little bit more about why you thought that at the beginning and just kind of your thoughts overall on this data.

Mera Dougherty (01:21):
Sure. You know, I think the first important part of this is you have to acknowledge who you are as a leader, right? There needs to be cognizant of who you are as a leader. And I don't mean that in terms of, I think some folks use it as like, "Oh, you know, I'm sorry, I'm white." That's not what I'm saying. I am a white leader, and I need to be cognizant of the fact that there has been a huge amount of privilege that has allowed me into the position I currently am, or that I'm in. With that, I have to use that privilege to say, I am actively dedicated to creating pipelines, especially for leadership, right? If we look at that data for leadership, it's just really astounding, right? I will create pipelines for leadership and for my staff that make it equitable, right? That we have leaders coming into our schools, and that we have leadership pipelines that is valuing our leaders that are coming from the communities that we serve, right. That have some shared background with our students, and more than I can say I have.

Mera Dougherty (02:24):
And so I think what that means is, in a practical sense looking at your leadership teams, looking at things like the advisory board that we have at Compass Rose, looking at people like our assistant principals, our principals, our leadership pipelines within our teachers, right? How we advance folks, and making sure that we are really focusing on leaders that come from the communities we serve, and have that shared background.

Mera Dougherty (02:49):
And so as a white leader, it's something that I need to be doing that work actively. And I need to be doing it 10 times more than anybody else. And I need to know who I am, right. I need to be doing the work of actively exploring the biases that I have, making sure that I am using anti-racist practices in my schools. And then also realizing, I think with all of this, that even though we talk about school leadership, right, and I have this role of like principal or head of school. Like I said, before, you shouldn't be the person who's steering the boat all the time. Or if you are steering the boat, great. You're asking someone else where to go. Right? You are not just saying like, great, I'm steering the boat here. I've also like never really been on a boat that much. So I don't know if this is how boats work. You know, like driving the van, I guess, right?

Mera Dougherty (03:43):
Like if you're going to be driving the van you've got this leadership position. You're also not the person who's deciding where it goes, and how you get there, and when you're going to stop, right. That's not how it works. You need to have a team that reflects your community. And you need to have a team that is your community. That's telling you where to go, and how to get there, and is taking over the driving. And that eventually, you're really not needed in that driver's seat. Right? You're setting up the community to drive itself to wherever it needs to go. And so to me, that's what that data really says. Right? That's where we need to make this big shift.

Ellen Willoughby (04:17):
Yeah. So it's like, they are the GPS in a sense.

Mera Dougherty (04:20):
Yeah.

Ellen Willoughby (04:20):
And you're just following the directions.

Mera Dougherty (04:23):
Exactly. And then I'm using my privilege to get that right. To buy the van, and to get in that seat. But then I'm doing everything I can after that, to actually get myself out of the seat. Right? And that sounds strange. But I mean, you and I, we'll sit down and talk in five, 10 years. And when we do, and we're having coffee, ideally having non-socially distanced in five to 10 years, I would hope that you and I are sitting there and we're talking about the new principals at my school and how wonderful they are. And that these are people who are from the community that we serve or have shared background with our children. Right? And I am doing different work at that point because leaders like me should eventually become not useless, but to some extent very unique and not the folks that typically are in these roles.

Mera Dougherty (05:16):
I think we can shift this data if we shift our idea of leadership, again to culturally affirming, to looking for leaders who are from our community, to reflecting this culture within the schools that we build, and then valuing that. Actually putting a value proposition to say, when we hire, when we look for values that are important in our kids and our families and our teachers, we are using the values that were actually created by this community. We are not bringing in a separate set of things that we believe, that have nothing to do with the community we serve.

Ellen Willoughby (05:49):
Yeah. And that your students grow up to be the teachers and the leaders of your schools because they are in your community. And again, I think like really stamping that how we use our privilege. And that is the most important part. It's not a white savior thing at all. Not at all. It's about how do we use our privilege and how do we listen to those in the community to ensure that we are doing and using that privilege for what is in their best interest, and what they desire for their committee.

Mera Dougherty (06:22):
Absolutely. And I think when we talk about that privilege, what it means is a lot of times ask others. So get out of the way. Get out of the way. Be quiet, and let others share. Again, it goes back to that quote that that Celeste was saying. Like you have to do this work. You can't do this work without the community. Or you can't work for a community without the community. Get out of the way.

Mera Dougherty (06:51):
So for me, it's about you get that school open and then you listen. You listen to the people that are from there. You put the people who are from that community in charge. You make sure folks have a space to speak, a space to be listened to, and a real space of power where what they're saying is being turned in to action. And there's got to be an equity there. So if you have a position of power or any sort of sense of privilege, we need to use that privilege to get out of the way. Set up structures to get out of the way and let communities do the amazing things they actually have been wanting to do for years and just have had too much red tape to do it.

Ellen Willoughby (07:29):
Nice.

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Ellen Willoughby (07:51):
Talk about another hot topic around this, and one that you and I have both had really long conversations when we were together. So when we were on a campus together, one of the things that we really talked about is being culturally responsive, especially when it became to behavior interventions and discipline. So I love to hear a little bit about what your thinking is on that. It's a tough one, man.

Mera Dougherty (08:20):
It is. And we've been through that. I feel like you have seen me, gosh, I don't even know how many years. It's been a while, Ellen. But we've done that work together.

Ellen Willoughby (08:26):
Yes, it has been.

Mera Dougherty (08:29):
And so you've actually seen me do this wrong and I think you've seen me sort of like get to the point where we're starting to do it right. I don't think anyone's doing it right yet. Or I don't think, I believe. I believe when we are talking about making sure that we are affirming culture and that we're doing that through, I almost hate the word discipline because I think it's been just turned into something else.

Ellen Willoughby (08:53):
Definitely.

Mera Dougherty (08:53):
But when we're doing it with any sort of system we create within our school, especially our systems just of behavior. And I think it's culture, right? It's actually the culture of the school. Again, it goes back to do you know your community, right? Do you know what they value? Do you know what they want for their children? Et cetera. And then thinking about what are the practices that we say, what are the things that we believe kids must do every day? Here are the things that they must engage in every day. Here are the things they cannot do. Here are the things that we think are impeding their education. And then looking at those things continuously with the eye on where are these things coming from?

Mera Dougherty (09:40):
Again, are they reflecting the needs of the community? Are they reflecting what the hopes and dreams of our children and our families are? Are they going to get our kids to that place? Or, and this is where it's really difficult to sort of suss out, are the things we're expecting from children and are saying are right or wrong, did we put those in place because of white privilege, white fragility? Are those systems and structures in place because it was just easier, right? You know, kids being in certain kinds of lines. Kids being quiet during certain times. Was it just easier for us? And like, that's okay too. We got to admit that.

Ellen Willoughby (10:19):
Yeah, we do. I mean, definitely there's a level of control that we feel that we have to have, or it's going to be like Lord of the Flies. But we also know that that's probably not going to happen.

Mera Dougherty (10:31):
Especially because kids are great, right?

Ellen Willoughby (10:33):
Yes, kids are amazing.

Mera Dougherty (10:35):
They're humans and they actually don't... We have to remember, there's this idea about what will and won't happen with children when we let control go, or when we think of changing a system. We have to remember, all humans want to be loved. Right? They want to do the right thing. And sometimes there are things that get in the way of that, which is like their immediate needs aren't being met. They aren't fed. They don't have a roof. There's something that their immediate needs aren't being met yet. So we need to meet those first.

Mera Dougherty (11:08):
Sometimes it's they actually don't know what the right thing is and where we think it's so obvious. We're like, duh, this is the right thing. And I don't know how many times I've seen a teacher do that. I myself have done that in areas of like, "Well, of course you don't do this." And you see a kid's face and you're like, "Oh, so you didn't know that. You did not know that there was a different choice in that moment? Cool. Let's like talk about that first." Right?

Mera Dougherty (11:32):
But there's these roadblocks to having kids do what's right sometimes. And I think what it's really about is actively letting kids know, and teaching, here are the values that we hold dear. Here's how you show them every day already. Right? You actually already have these values in them, because again, they're important to your community. They're part of the fabric of who you are. They're a part of your history. And then here's how we build on those, right? Here's how we make really good choices, or choices that will get us to not where I want you to be in your life, but where you want to be in your life. Here's how you can use those values to make those choices. And here's what happens when you don't make them, and some really natural consequences that come with those. Punitive measures of punishment, we've got to get over these.

Ellen Willoughby (12:23):
Yeah. I mean, if we think about it as adults, like there are times we don't meet a deadline. There are times that we screw something up and nobody sends us home or makes us stay after work and get it done. And I know that part of that, we're helping kids build their own knowledge and their own self-awareness and self-management through this. But if it's reactive and it's not a natural consequence to that, are we really teaching them something?

Mera Dougherty (13:01):
I mean, I would say no. And again, it's a little messier. When we're thinking about systems of culture, or creating the culture of a school. And when I say that, I mean creating behavioral systems. Where we typically have gone wrong is creating these stringent, this is what's right. This is what's wrong. Here's what kids must do. Here's what kids can't do. And especially in charter schools, right, I think it's important to just call out this fact. There's no tolerance policy, which actually doesn't refer to anything specific. People have used it, no excuses, zero tolerance. People throw these things around.

Mera Dougherty (13:45):
The issue with that is most of the things that we put on that list are very white normative, and usually pretty racist ideas, right? We have not considered the background of our children. Again, we have not asked that question to our community. What do you want for your children? What's important to you? I think a great example of this is when we think about how we allow kids to speak in a classroom and thinking about the tone of voice that they use, or the volume, et cetera.

Mera Dougherty (14:16):
Well, when I think of the conversations I've had with families recently, there has been this idea of advocacy. Families want for their children to be able to advocate, advocate for themselves, and to advocate for their community. Great. I think that's wonderful too. Well then how in the world am I telling a child that your voice level needs to be at a whisper in the classroom, and that it's rude to disagree with someone. Like, no, we actually need to teach children how to actively engage in tough conversations, right? And how do we have a discussion without raising our hands, right? How does that naturally happen?

Mera Dougherty (14:56):
Because if we want kids who are going to be the next lawmakers, who are going to be people who are on a political stage advocating, they need to know how to be in a conversation where they're not raising their hand and speaking out of whisper. They need to know how to raise and lower their voice. They need to know how to modulate their volume and they need to be able to explore that within a classroom. Not be punished for it.

Mera Dougherty (15:20):
So again, I believe that we need to look back at our systems and again, use that same tool of what is it people want for their children? What is it children want to be themselves? What are the highest positions of power that we need to tell our children are open to them, right? And then are we creating systems of behavior that get our kids to that place that tell our kids, yes, you can advocate for yourself. Yes, you can ask questions.

Mera Dougherty (15:52):
Because I tell you when our kids go to the Ivy League school of their choice, they're going to need to be able to go to their professors and ask questions after class. And they're going to need to be able to push back on the ideas of their peers. And if they never learned that because we told them it's wrong, that's going to be a problem. Right?

Ellen Willoughby (16:11):
Yeah. Because our current kind of behavior system is really all about compliance. It's really all about in a lot of ways what makes it easier for the teacher.

Mera Dougherty (16:23):
Yes.

Ellen Willoughby (16:24):
Where there's not a true engagement of students. And again, like you said, them learning to use their voice, whatever that voice is. And also letting them know that their voice is important, and matters, and should be heard just as much as the student sitting next to them.

Mera Dougherty (16:45):
Absolutely. And I think as a leader, the way that you can do that, because look, I've been a teacher. I've been a teacher in Brooklyn, and Harlem, and Austin, really across South to North.

Ellen Willoughby (16:57):
You've done it all.

Mera Dougherty (16:58):
We've been there, as have you. And I know how tough it is. I know how tough it is to be a teacher. And it is so much easier to create these really stringent rules. This is what happens when you don't do this. This happens next. I get that. And I have been there.

Ellen Willoughby (17:15):
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Mera Dougherty (17:17):
As a leader, we can really help teachers, and educators, and help ourselves by saying, okay, let's go back to these values that we believe were important. Let's go back to what we believe kids must do in a school. Kids can do. Kids cannot do. Let's continuously go back to these lists. Let's go back to them with our teachers. Let's go back to them with our families and with our community. And then let's make sure to reinforce to our staff and to our community that here's what we want to see. Right? And where some of it's going to be messy and that's okay. Right? Here's where some of the mess is. Of course, as a leader, I have to say there needs to be some safety.

Ellen Willoughby (17:57):
Absolutely. Yes. It's not the idea of we don't have rules. We don't have expectations.

Mera Dougherty (18:04):
But there is this idea of, here's what we're expecting. And here's where we're okay with things looking a little bit different. So that teachers don't have a false expectation in their head of, Oh my gosh, someone's going to come in and observe my classroom and they're going to see that kids are talking over each other because we're in a unit right now where we're really learning how to have active discussion in class. And they're going to be upset with me.

Mera Dougherty (18:28):
We need to, as leaders, make sure that we really communicate here's what we're expecting to see. Here's what it's going to look like on the way. And then we're going to have discussions with you about it, and we're going to be working with you. We're going to be working as a school, and as a community together to figure out how to get there. And sometimes it's going to be messy. But there isn't going to be this sense of like divine retribution, right? Like that's not how this is going to work. We're working on this together, and we're going to figure out how it works, and we're going to make missteps. But here's what we're all aiming to do. And giving that vision of like, this is what our community wants. Okay. Here's how we're going to move together towards getting it. And here's how we're going to modulate and shift when it doesn't go right.

Ellen Willoughby (19:10):
And having the community be a part of that is huge because that's what we need. We need for that connection and that partnership of our families with our schools. Because then when there are things that feel a little bit outside of our locus of control in helping a student, we reach out to the family, because they know that kid better than we do. And they know ways that they can support, and help us support in the classroom.

Mera Dougherty (19:38):
Absolutely.

Ellen Willoughby (19:40):
Wow. This has been so fun. So what I want to do is ask a piece of advice question. So what advice would you give to leaders who are just starting out exploring how to create a culturally responsive school? Just kind of final thoughts on that?

Mera Dougherty (19:59):
Sure. So one, for leaders that are exploring that, one, like way to go, right? The first thing you need to do is pat yourself on the back and say, it's a tough time in education right now. And there's a million things you could be thinking of. And I know that if I was a younger leader at this time, I probably would say, Oh my gosh, that's like something I need.

Ellen Willoughby (20:20):
Right. I'm trying to figure out how to do synchronous and asynchronous learning. And I'm trying to do 90,000 other things in a pandemic.

Mera Dougherty (20:28):
Absolutely. Yes. So good for you. And know that this work is important, and it's not work that can be done next year. It's not work that can be done next week because you're always going to have, if you haven't realized this already, especially for our newer leaders. I'm so sorry, this is your life, right? This is a pandemic, and so it makes crazier than normal. But this is your life all the time. There's always going to be something else happening. There's always going to be a fire burning somewhere. And the first piece of advice is just, way to go for doing this work. It needs to be done now.

Mera Dougherty (21:01):
Two. The second piece of advice would be again, like go on a listening tour, find a way to make it work with the current workload you have. Right? So find something that is on your plate right now, whether it be a drive-through event that you need to host for your school, whether it be a big curriculum question that has been sort of on your mind burning there, something about what your kids need, et cetera. Find something that you can sort of mesh with this community listening, so that you have a way to listen to the community, but also feel like, okay, I'm getting something done off my list, right?

Mera Dougherty (21:41):
And set those blocks for yourself every week, where you have to speak to people from the community, and at the same time, you can get something done. Eventually you're going to get to the point where there's a week you don't need to get something done, and you're going to have some very cool conversations. But that's okay. I'm assuming no, one's there yet. If you are, my name is Mera, you contact me. You let me know what you're doing.

Mera Dougherty (22:04):
But find a way to do that. And don't be scared. You know, I was initially really scared to reach out to some of the people in my community. Right? Even though this is my backyard. People want to talk. Especially right now, you can literally... I just sent emails. "Hey, my name is Mera Dougherty. I'm founding a school at Manor. I just want to hear about your community." Or if I had a specific question like, "I really want to know more about what is it you envision for your children in the future? What kind of school do you want in your community? Or what kind of event would you want for this fall?" Whatever it is, send a bunch of emails out, right?

Mera Dougherty (22:43):
Just find people's emails. Go on LinkedIn. Go on Facebook and send them Facebook messages. I didn't Facebook till this year. Now I Facebook. Right? So like send them some Facebook messages. People will get back to you. They want to talk to you. And then find a mode of talking to you them every week so that you can start to get a pulse on what your community wants and needs. If you start that the rest of it will come, right? The rest of it, you are going to start to see like, Oh my gosh, I can now solve this problem with these people from the community. Oh my goodness. There is a way that I can incorporate what I heard from this person that I talked to last week into what I'm doing this next week.

Mera Dougherty (23:24):
It's going to naturally shift what you do. So that is my biggest piece of advice is start there. Start with listening to your community. Start with giving your community that platform. And then if you want to start building on that, think about how you're actually validating the beliefs and the dreams of your community, and how are you giving your community a platform. Right?

Mera Dougherty (23:44):
That's that third step that I would start to think about, is are you really, now that you're listening, are you giving them the stage? Right? And if you're not, then start to think about that. But get the first two down, right? Start it. Start the work. You've got to start it now.

Ellen Willoughby (23:59):
Right. You've just got to start.

Mera Dougherty (24:00):
And start listening. Right? Start those two first. Then start giving people the stage.

Ellen Willoughby (24:04):
Great. Are there any resources that you recommend, books for people to read, or at this point, just start there, and then?

Mera Dougherty (24:12):
Honestly, I think there are so many books, right? Just as I was driving here... Not as I was driving. Before I was driving, I was like, "Oh, I need to read this book," and was ordering it to my house. I think there are so many books right now. There are so many incredible leaders that are speaking about this right now.

Mera Dougherty (24:31):
I'm going to take sort of an oppositional viewpoint to that. You're probably already doing that. Right? Most of the leaders I know are reading a million books. They're doing all those things. You're probably doing that right now. And you can find those lists other places. I, as a white leader in Texas, I actually am probably not the person to ask. Ask somebody who is in your community what books to read, what texts to dive into, what trainings to go to.

Mera Dougherty (24:57):
I'm not the person to tell you. I think the place to start, again, is your community. And they're going to tell you those things. The book I got this morning was something that somebody told me yesterday.

Ellen Willoughby (25:06):
Great.

Mera Dougherty (25:07):
Ask them.

Ellen Willoughby (25:07):
Yes. There you go. So as we do with each of our podcasts, we're going to end with, we have a seven short answer questions with an educational twist that I just want you to just kind of fire off your thoughts.

Mera Dougherty (25:20):
Oh, fun.

Ellen Willoughby (25:21):
So as an educator, what keeps you up at night?

Mera Dougherty (25:25):
That eternal question, right? Are we/have we done everything we possibly could for our kids?

Ellen Willoughby (25:31):
As an educator? What allows you to sleep at night?

Mera Dougherty (25:34):
Getting to see my kids the next day. I mean, it's like different right now. But typically there's that moment when you get to school and kids start coming in. Right? And it's such a joyful moment. And so when I am like, okay, Mera, it is time to conk out. That's what I think about.

Ellen Willoughby (25:52):
What sound or noise do you love to hear in a school?

Mera Dougherty (25:56):
Educators and kids participating in things together. So I don't care if it's, like laughing together is the best. But also like when you have that first heartbreaking novel that a sixth grade class reads together and the teacher and the kids are all in tears. Right? So it sounds so weird. And you walk by their class and they're all experiencing this emotion, this like moment together. Or they experience their first time there's like a political disagreement in the class. And they're getting to experience that together. But when you can see the adults and the kids in the building experiencing something together for the first time.

Ellen Willoughby (26:33):
What sound or noise do you hate to hear in a school?

Mera Dougherty (26:35):
Suspicious silence. You know that, Ellen. You know that silence. You know that silence. It's like middle school transition time. And all of a sudden you're like, "Why is it so quiet?" And you know something is wrong.

Ellen Willoughby (26:50):
That is the greatest answer. What is your favorite word in education?

Mera Dougherty (26:58):
This is so hard. Paul Morrissey, our founder, uses a term the joy love thing. And really, I love that. Right? The idea that we need to take so much joy because this is the best profession in the world, right? Like this is hard. But this is the best. We get to do the best work every day. And we need to bring so much joy to it. And the fact that we are here to love each other and love our kids. That sounds weird, and people get super creeped out. But you know this from working with me. I'm going to tell you, I love you. Ellen. I love you. You know, I love you. I love the kids we serve. I love the families we serve. And I just love when you get to a place where you've got a community that is joyful and like loves on each other every day. You have done something right. It's my favorite saying.

Ellen Willoughby (27:47):
That's also how you get the hard work done too.

Mera Dougherty (27:49):
And it becomes not so hard then. When you really love each other, it's like, okay, I will do this for you because you are so great, and I want to see you learn, right?

Ellen Willoughby (27:59):
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What is your least favorite word in education?

Mera Dougherty (28:10):
These are actually words that I believe in, but I think have just been so misused. One would be structure, right? It's not that I don't believe in structure. Actually I totally believe in structure. You know this from working with me.

Ellen Willoughby (28:23):
Yes.

Mera Dougherty (28:25):
But it's just been, I don't know if I can say bastardize, but the word has become something very different than what it means. And accountability. I believe highly in accountability. I think people should be accountable, but I think the way that we use it now is actually this very judgmental, blaming thing, which is not what it's meant to be. So those two words, when I hear them, they always raise my flag to like, "Ooh, this is going to not be something great." Like typically when they're used, it's almost how we talk about what kids come in with, right? That conversation typically goes not the right way. And those two words, typically when I hear them used are being used to talk about real negative thing.

Ellen Willoughby (29:12):
Yeah. And give people like a visceral reaction, as opposed to like an open-minded thought that this is something that can be really good and really helpful and powerful in a really positive way.

Mera Dougherty (29:22):
Yeah. Like take accountability for the awesome thing you did. But take accountability for that learning that you, child, put in and that your brain got so much bigger. Take accountability teacher for this beautiful classroom environment that you made. We never hear it. I'm going to say, I have never heard those sentences.

Ellen Willoughby (29:38):
No. No.

Mera Dougherty (29:39):
I don't know about you, but I've never heard those sentences.

Ellen Willoughby (29:41):
No,

Mera Dougherty (29:42):
We do hear accountability in terms of like, you need to take accountability for this misaction that you made. Right? You need to take accountability for these negative things, which those should come too> but that's not what accountability means. Accountability, like this sense of ownership over what you do. Also like let's take accountability for your ability to change. Have you ever heard that? I've never heard that.

Ellen Willoughby (30:03):
Nobody said that to me.

Mera Dougherty (30:04):
No one's saying that to me, and I don't hear our kids saying like, "Oh, I would love to take accountability to make that change."

Ellen Willoughby (30:11):
How powerful would that be?

Mera Dougherty (30:13):
Yeah. Versus like, I have heard people speak down to kids, like, "You need to take accountability for what you did." That's great. So take accountability, say "Yes, I did it." That's what you want? Like, that was your big aha moment for a child was or for a teacher was you got someone to say, "Yes 'twas I. I did it. It me." Like no! So those words, they drive me up the wall.

Ellen Willoughby (30:38):
Okay. And who was your favorite teacher and why?

Mera Dougherty (30:43):
This was really hard. This one was like the hardest. I was really struggling to think about this, and I came up with two really different people. One of whom I'm not totally sure how it came into my head. So one is really obvious. His name was Mr. Mark Flamoe. I have realized I probably need to look him up at this point and send him an email. But he was a teacher at the high school that I went to, Jesuit High school in Portland, Oregon, which was just a really phenomenal place of instruction. And he was the first person, along with, I think he was our principal at the time, paul Hogan, that made me love literature.

Mera Dougherty (31:21):
I was someone who grew up. I went to a school, we spoke Spanish first. And so I was a really bad reader in English. And I shouldn't say that. I was a developing reader in English. But the way it was described back then was like, she couldn't read. Right? I was not a reader. I remember someone telling me that in like fourth grade, being like, "She is not a reader."

Ellen Willoughby (31:42):
So that's a really positive thing to put into a fourth graders head.

Mera Dougherty (31:45):
That was normal back then.

Ellen Willoughby (31:46):
Oh, it totally was.

Mera Dougherty (31:47):
A non-reader. And I caught up because I found books that I loved on my own. Right? Just sort of like salacious teen novels. But he was the first person that showed me how to dig into it. Like open a book and dig into the prose that was there. Dig into the writing, and figure out how to sort of be... Lucy Calkins talks about this too. How do dig into a text and explore it and love that process. And I never understood it until him, and my principal at the time. Both of them really worked together on this very cool and robust English curriculum. So that was great.

Mera Dougherty (32:23):
The other teacher, I don't know why she popped in my head. But was this woman named Sister Jackie. She was a middle school teacher of mine. And she got me in like huge trouble all the time.

Ellen Willoughby (32:37):
She got you in huge trouble?

Mera Dougherty (32:43):
Good point. I got myself in trouble. That was pre-existing middle school and has existed far beyond that. But I was always in trouble with her. That's the better way to say it, thank you. Taking accountability for my actions, Ellen. I was always in trouble with Sister Jackie. But she was the first person, I think, that made me realize that she could really like me. And at the same time, like she knew what was up. Right? Like she knew what I was doing, and I think for me, it formed a lot of the ideas I had, especially that I use now in terms of, we need to, again, sort of like accountability. That's how I've sort of revised that idea. It's like, we need to love kids and let them know no matter what they do, we're going to love them. My love is not conditional on anything for my children. The minute they step in that door, I love them period. And if they leave that door, I still love them period.

Mera Dougherty (33:51):
But there are going to be moments where they just do something crazy. And that's okay. Right? Like I'm here for it. One, it may be kind of funny, right? It may be enjoyable. It may be really not enjoyable. It may be really uncomfortable. And we're going to have a moment where we talk about it, right? We're going to have some moment where we need to figure this out, but it is not going to make me love you less. And so I think she was the first person that made me realize that in education. And now that is a really important concept to me with our kids.

Ellen Willoughby (34:22):
Well, Mera, I cannot thank you enough for you sharing your knowledge with us today, and on this really incredibly important topic. And also just the great laughs as well. And we want to thank all of our listeners for joining us for this episode of Drinking from the Firehose, a podcast for campus leaders. If you liked what you heard on this episode today, please hop over to whatever platform you use and give us a rating and review. It helps people find our podcasts and lets us know what we're doing right, and what we can improve upon. And, of course, don't forget to mention this to your colleagues. Thanks again.